Navigating Custody Issues Across State Lines

Our hosts discuss the complexities of handling custody issues when co-parents live in different states. They delve into the legalities, jurisdiction matters, and real-life scenarios including military families and interstate relocations. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding state laws, getting court permissions, and the potential emotional and financial impacts on the children and parents involved. They also provide practical advice on dealing with such situations, emphasizing the significance of consulting with an attorney before making any moves.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:41 Custody Issues Across State Lines
00:57 Jurisdiction and Legal Complexities
01:02 Case Study: California to North Carolina
02:01 Challenges of Interstate Custody
03:12 Real-Life Examples and Scenarios
05:06 Impact on Children and Families
06:27 Personal Experiences and Insights
09:22 Judicial Decisions and Fairness
09:50 Financial Implications of Custody Arrangements
10:41 Navigating Child Support and Extraordinary Expenses
11:04 Relocation and Its Legal Implications
12:50 Getting Permission to Move: Legal Steps
13:35 Factors Judges Consider in Relocation Cases
15:44 Emergency Custody and Relocation Challenges
17:30 Co-Parenting and Relocation: Practical Advice
19:57 Consulting Attorneys Before Relocating
20:38 Final Thoughts on Relocation and Custody

Creators and Guests

Host

Cameron Heinsohn

Marketing & Business Development Manager

Host

Elizabeth A. Stephenson, MSW

Attorney/Partner, Parent Coordinator, & Collaborative Lawyer at New Direction Family Law

Host

Sarah J. Hink

Attorney/Partner at New Direction Family Law

Producer

Joe Woolworth

Owner of Podcast Cary in Cary, NC. Your friendly neighborhood podcast studio.

What is Ex-it Strategy?

Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.

75 - Ex-it Strategy
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[00:00:00] Hi everyone. Elizabeth Stevenson with New Direction Family Law. I partner in crime over here.

Sarah J. Hink: Sarah Hink. That's me. We have our lovely cam joining us today again. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, and if you're watching on the YouTube videos, we're in the same outfits 'cause we just recorded another one I did up today. We're very like Christmas looking, the white and green over here. But our next topic today is custody issues.

When the other party, your other ex-spouse partner. Co-parent lives in another state from you, which Right,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: which is becoming more the norm. Really. Yes. A lot of times.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And especially with military families, that happens too. That's right. That's right. Um, but there's a lot of different dynamics that can happen [00:01:00] from that.

And it also depends on where you're starting from too.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Right. So let's, let's start from California. Let's say's say, um, mom moves here, California. I think in California they actually give you permission to move, you know, and then you can order. It says you can move. And so. Dad's not happy with what happened or mom's not happy with that order and they wanna change it.

Well, here I could just file a motion to modify. Right. It

Sarah J. Hink: depends the most lawyerly question. So answer, that was a, that was a far question. Yeah. Um, so it depends on a lot of things. Where does this other parent still live? Well, let's say

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that dad still lives in California.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. So. Oh, you could try to register it here for modification purposes.

The current order there might be a conversation between a judge in North Carolina, right, and a judge in California to determine which state has jurisdiction and what does jurisdiction mean? That means they have. The power to make a decision on this case, right? So they can exert their power, their law over you, [00:02:00] right?

Um, on your case, right? So if maybe there's a state that didn't give permission and you have a custody order, say you're just living in a state like Colorado and you're married and you know, your spouse goes outta town for the weekend and you decide, you know, I. This is my time to get away. For whatever reasons you feel abused or just you just hate 'em and you wanna go back to North Carolina where your family is.

I mean, this is what we see a lot are people return. Right. Coming to where their family is, where their support system is. Their support system. Exactly. Um, and so they do that, but they still have a court order in Colorado, so. Yeah, usually the jurisdiction's gonna stay in Colorado because

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the, you fled the juris, you fled the jurisdiction, of course.

Don't like you leaving, leaving them, per se, without permission.

Sarah J. Hink: Exactly. And it takes a while to be in one place in North Carolina, at least six months for North Carolina to decide whether, like even take the jurisdiction at that point. Right. For a lot of cases. Um. But if that, say you leave Colorado, then the next week your spouse decides they're [00:03:00] gonna leave too.

Then they go up and leave and go to Alaska. I don't whatever. Then no one lives in Colorado anymore and the court order is still in Colorado. That's different. Right. They're gonna say, well, no one even lives here anymore. So North Carolina

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: can't change restriction.

Sarah J. Hink: Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: So I, I have a case sort of like that right now, where they were, they weren't married, but mom moved here 'cause her mother was dying.

Mm-hmm. And that was the premise of life. Dad said, okay, you can go, you know, take the, it was like a newborn almost.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And then mom decided she didn't wanna come back 'cause I was in, 'cause she, they had just moved there. They didn't really know each other. She got pregnant, so she didn't wanna stay there, so she just decided to stay here.

I like

Sarah J. Hink: North Carolina more than my husband, basically.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Yeah. So then dad decides, okay, if you're not coming back, then I'll come to North Carolina.

Sarah J. Hink: Okay. Okay, great. So cool.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: But then things did not go well when he got here, and so they split up and he could not find, he was a, like a construction guy. He couldn't find a job, and his family's in [00:04:00] somewhere, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, somewhere.

So he moves there. Mm-hmm. And so now, um, what do we do? Ah, sounds like we file in

Sarah J. Hink: North

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Carolina. I think so. 'cause mom has been here six months. Well over a year now. Yeah. So,

Sarah J. Hink: yeah. And then just so we have the jurisdiction issues and there, there's some other scenarios that can play out, but really. But it comes down to his logistics after that.

Correct. And thinking about what's best for this child and what's realistic for an infant. Right. Sometimes judges look at it, well, great, they're not in school yet. We'll ship 'em off to dad for a month at a time. You get like half a month and you can take the other half of, yeah. Which I hate when they do that, I'm like, is that really best for this child or is that just making the parents feel better?

I,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: but I did have a judge in, in rural county, North Carolina. Dad lived in Utah, mom lived here. Mm-hmm. The mom got one school year, then they went to dad and then dad cut the next school year. So they were taking terrible schools that terrible for the [00:05:00] every

Sarah J. Hink: year, you know? So I don't think, it's not a math equation.

It's a child. A child, yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Like so I think that there are some, if you live in two different states and you don't really get along it, you, you're gonna have lifelong. Problems for the most part. Yeah. I have like three interstate cases right now that are like that.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And it's always sad to me because I feel like we lose sight of the children.

Right. And the judges do too. They just are trying to like, do whatever they can to get to as close as 50 50. You know, every holiday, every school break, they're going outta state ate. And that's just exhausting. And then the parent who's here, or the parent who has the school time is just, they're doing all the heavy lifting, quite frankly.

Yeah. Don't get any vacation time with the kids. Um, and you's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: stressful. A 15-year-old does not want to go to Utah. No, for the summer, you know, all my friends, my camps, all my sports. I mean, the United, we're changing schools every year, right? [00:06:00] So I, I don't know, I don't think there's a, a really good answer, quite frankly.

Sarah J. Hink: No, and I guess that's, for anyone listening that's looking at the future, and this might be in your future, just really think about. Going to therapy, what can you do to work on the relationship because that makes it so much harder. It does. Um, 'cause you do stand to lose a substantial amount of time with your child if there's no Right.

Substantial issues with the other parent.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Correct. And Nick, and I've always wondered, I'm not a child of divorce, so I, I don't know how children, I think it is it hard, and people can chime in on this, but is it hard for kids? How do you have a relationship with a parent? Three months out of the year. Yeah.

Especially if you're really young. Yeah. When it happened, I, I have a hard time understanding that.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. You know, I don't know. It's gotta be hard. We do need to hear from children of divorce on that one. Yeah. That, write that

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: down.

Sarah J. Hink: Well,

Cameron Heinsohn: I'm

Sarah J. Hink: a child

Cameron Heinsohn: of divorce. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Did you experience anything like that?

Well, [00:07:00] no, not exactly. So, you know, I, um. I lived with my dad with my younger brother. And, um, my dad would move for, for work Okay. For a better job. So he, we moved from Washington to Greenville and then from Greenville to Cary and from Cary to Andrew. Oh, wow. And so, like, you know, and this is over the course of 18 years, like a long time, right?

Like, um. And so my mom would follow. Oh, okay. But there would be a period of time where, you know, usually we had just moved and she had to, you know, figure her own way out there. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so, you know, later in adulthood. Or later in childhood. Um, and, you know, my mom lived, like, ended up practically down the street from us.

And so it was very easy to have like a really, like Right, right. Yeah. Especially once I started driving. Yes. And I could drive me and my [00:08:00] brother around, like, we could go to whoever's house for dinner. Right. You know, it, it wouldn't matter. But, so there was always like a little chunk of time where it was, it became, I just remember it being so as a child, a little kid, like.

An annoying, I don't if, if that's the right term, to like sit in the car and have to drive for two hours. Hours Yeah. And meet at a gas station in between to like trade off. Mm-hmm. On the weekends. Right. Like and, and just, and it like. It became going to, it became going to see the other parent became very much like a chore.

Yeah. Right. For, for the 'cause it was boring to sit in the car for, you know? Right, right. So it's not

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: just interstate. I'm glad you made that point. It's, if you move, if you're in Wake County and somebody moves to Carter Red or somebody moves, um, to Watauga that you got the same issue.

Sarah J. Hink: Right.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: You know, not quite, you don't.

I mean, but you got a four hour drive or you gotta put 'em on a plane or do something and you're not gonna have every other. [00:09:00] And we can, I mean, I will say the judges do not want to put children in the car for long periods of time. Yeah. FF for multiple times a month or so. I, I will give 'em credit for that.

Some can think

Sarah J. Hink: that we'll see, get, get so many new judges these days. Like, I don't know what they think after time. Um, 'cause I've, I've had recent decisions that would would say otherwise. Um, but they just, they, they just put the parent, I think before the child a lot of times that are just trying to say, this is what's fair to the parents fair.

Right. It's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: not, it's not best interest. A lot of times it is. And you're absolutely right about that. Yeah. It's what is fair. And to, and that's the parents, not to the child per se. Yeah, agree. And I'm over with the corner saying, judge,

Sarah J. Hink: agree that's wrong. This is the standard that you're supposed to apply.

But they get the final say and Right. It's sort of like what they call it, splitting the baby and splitting the baby. Yeah. Yeah. And just think about the financial issues involved in this as well, especially for the outta state. The long distance travel is, you know, my case where I have. [00:10:00] Someone in North Carolina and the other parent is in a different state and they have to split the cost equally of the airfare, the travel for the kids to fly back and forth.

And if they're not young enough to fly unaccompanied, then you have to buy your own ticket. And that's scary in itself to put a

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: 6-year-old. Yeah. Or I can't remember how old you have to be, but even a 10-year-old on a plane by themselves. I don't know that. I don't know. That've seen some pretty

Cameron Heinsohn: young kids flying.

I unaccompanied

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that would scare me to death, you know?

Sarah J. Hink: You know. Case where you know you have someone that's a, you know, a teacher compared to someone that makes 200 K and they're having to split it equally. Right. That's not financially fair. Talk about fairness or if you're

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the person that moves sometimes they make you bear the whole responsibility.

Yeah. They stick you with it. Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: So, I mean, it can fall into the child support area as well. You know, sometimes they categorize it as an extraordinary expense, right? But it really depends on like how this happened, how this fell apart, right? Like did you, was it military maybe? Where it, someone's not, it's not their fault they have to move away, or just you both.

[00:11:00] Moved. Maybe you got pregnant on a, like a fling somewhere, right? Right. On vacation. Who knows? But if you deliberately move from your spouse or your partner who you decide to have a baby with in location A to location B, then they might say, yeah, you're responsible for that airfare travel this is [00:12:00] my tip of the day, if you move to another state, do not do it because you've met someone.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Oh, and you want to have another relationship and move in with them because there are certain factors that are gonna come into play. Mm-hmm. For sure. And that is not one of them that's gonna be good for you. Yeah. Speak

Sarah J. Hink: to an attorney first before you do that, before you move. For sure. I, I really,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: really do that.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And I think that happens a lot now because of, you know, online dating, dating. I, I had a case where someone wanted to move to Oregon across the country because I met someone playing halo. I think it was Halo. Right? It was like a gamer, like, and they get in the chats with each other. Yeah. So, yeah.

So don't do that. Don't do that.

Joe: Early in the episode, you guys mentioned getting permission to move. What does that look like? You gotta go to the judge and be like, can I move

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: my, if I. [00:13:00] My advice is we need to file a motion and put on the evidence and let the court make that decision decision. And generally what they'll say is a lot of times, sometimes, ma'am, you can, if they don't want 'em to move and think this state is better, ma'am, you can move, but you're gonna get every other weekend.

Less time. Yeah, less time. Or if you remain here, then we're gonna keep doing 50 50. Yeah. And so then it really does fall to the person to make the decision of

Cameron Heinsohn: how badly do I need to move?

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Right. I want move to lose time with my kids. Mm-hmm. To move Exactly that.

Sarah J. Hink: Sometimes they still move.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: They do. And I think that answers the question.

Right, right, right there anyway.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: And do they

Joe: consider certain things like say it was an, a husband abusing a spouse with That's a, I think

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: that, I mean, I think that's a, well it's consideration, but they look at what provides the better opportunity for children. Yeah. Like, you know, income and educ, who has the better schools?

Um, what activities are there? What, um, culture? Oh, so the judge is looking

Joe: to be like, if, let's say you were in Idaho and you're moving to kra, you know Yeah. The judge may be like, well, that could be a better [00:14:00] scenario. They do. Right. But if you've

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: got a 10-year-old who's always lived in Idaho. That's, that goes on the other parent's side because that's what they're used to.

That's where their doctors are. That's where their teachers are. That's where their friends are. That's where their grandparents are,

Sarah J. Hink: perhaps.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Who knows? We have

Sarah J. Hink: case law here that pretty much lays out the factors that the court has to consider, the Ramirez Barker. Factors. Factors, and you know, some of it too is their ability to co-parent.

Correct. 'cause of the parent that is. When moving away and wants to take the child away, have they been compliant with other court orders? Right. Do they ever withhold visitation? Right. 'cause if they're the parent that oftentimes withhold visitation, then the court's gonna say, this other parent should keep the kids.

They're gonna make sure you get to see them. Right, exactly. But if you take 'em, then no, no. That, that happens. Um, but yeah, they look at. The information and facts about the

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: location, the schools, like you said, the crime. I had one where person went and did the whole crime rate and all of this. I mean, you know, it really, I mean there are a lot of factors that can fall into that.

Mm-hmm. Which is very interesting, I think. Well,

Cameron Heinsohn: and as the child of divorce, I will say, I think that that's part of, [00:15:00] like, aside from being bored in the car, that's part of like why it worked out okay for us. 'cause my, both of my parents were very committed to like making, like correct, communicating and making sure that we.

My brother and I had everything that we needed and you know,

Sarah J. Hink: but that's, that's gotta be hard on, you know, your mom in that area, you know, she has to go find a new job, you know? Mm-hmm. How is she gonna financially support herself? Yeah. If it's dad already finding a new, new job. Mm-hmm. And that's why you're moving, that other parent has to up and do that as well.

And I have had cases where a parent does make that same decision. Like she wants to move. I agreed. I just moved too. Right, right. And kudos to that parent. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. That is huge that they do that. Right. So, yeah. And then think of, I know we have tons of episodes probably on emergency custody, right.

That also involves out-of-state moves. Right. But what I've been seeing lately, you know, one of the, one of the three reasons you might get emergency custody is for evading the state of North Carolina [00:16:00] getting on the jurisdiction. So you have a wife and a husband, they have a child, wife decides she's just gonna up and.

Take the kid to her parents in Massachusetts and doesn't plan to come back, right? Well, you can file emergency custody and the court will do an emergency custody order saying you need to return with the kid and give the kid back to dad within, you know, three days or something like that. But what I've been seeing lately is mom, in that scenario, talks to an attorney.

Files a complaint for custody and the next day moves to Massachusetts and the court says, well that's not an emergency anymore. 'cause they, they're

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: not fleeing the jurisdiction. They file for a custody complain. Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: But it's so hard at that point to get that child back. I know. Because you don't get a court date for, you know, two or three months.

Right. And you might even get continued. Right. And that's a down, like if you can't co-parent.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: Your life's going to be a living hell because the court's not gonna help you.

Sarah J. Hink: No. And so, and it's gonna

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: cost you thousands and thousands of dollars. And

Sarah J. Hink: I see this a lot with young kids, which is the worst. [00:17:00] 'cause you have a parent who's here still and the other one moved, but I guess got away with it 'cause they filed be, um, you know, missing the, the other parent's

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: not gonna let the other parent have them.

'cause they're afraid they won't bring 'em back. Because that, and a lot

Sarah J. Hink: of times it's infants so they're missing like, some really precious time with young. Children, young babies that you can't get back. Yeah. And a lot of times it is the mom that leaves and does go back to family outta state. Which I guess, well, let's don't generalize, but I'm just saying, I'm just in that like, it's harder I think when they're that young.

Oh, no, I, I agree with that.

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: I agree.

Sarah J. Hink: So if you're listening though, I guess it's. Way to, one way to get around it. If you wanna leave and make sure you talk to an attorney and file for custody right before you jump outta state, because that seems to be the better option is to not do that before you have some

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: conversations.

So whatever. Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: But you know, I've just been disappointed lately with the court saying, well, I know I have too. They filed, so technically it's not an emergency. Right. What's the difference? What's the difference? I don.

Joe: What about situations where, I remember I lived in Wisconsin in, I was five minutes from the border, like right on 94.

So [00:18:00] is that just like, oh, it's like 20 minutes away. So it's super easy to get that exception or. Is it more, is it just as difficult because it just happens to be a different state, even though it's maybe five minutes down the road? Is

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: the factors are still gonna be the same though?

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah, it's probably goes down to the county and like location of the county the child lived in who would have jurisdiction and venue at that point.

Right. Um,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: but if you can't look, if you move and you can still do your regular custody schedule, then you're cool. I mean, nobody needs to do anything unless somebody just wants to file to modify, but Right. It's because you move. If you could, if you're doing. Like a, and they're not in school yet and you may be doing a week on, week off or something.

Mm-hmm. I've had that where somebody moved to Virginia and they con continue to do that. Now we're gonna have a problem when school starts. Yeah. But at least it kicks it down the road a little bit. And each of them get to have that, as you say, that early time. Mm-hmm. You know, with that baby. Yeah.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. And how easy it is for people to relocate these days just makes these cases happen more, more

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: and more.

I agree.

Sarah J. Hink: Yeah. But you gotta think about, you know, what's [00:19:00] best for your child. I know that you want your child with you and you want to move, but is it removing that other parent from their life actually in their best interest? Right? But

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: let's say you get separated and he wasn't ordered to pay any alimony or very little alimony, and you can't afford to live in.

You know, California, California, San Francisco. Right? And he is not held. What are you supposed to do? Just be home homeless? I mean, you know, I mean, at some point, no, you wanna go back to your family. Right? Exactly. Yeah. And so the court may see, and that's a good factor for you, perhaps. Mm-hmm. You know, that you didn't do it just to keep him from seeing the child who did it.

'cause that's where your support is. And so that's a sort of a different scenario. Yeah. I think in that respect.

Sarah J. Hink: Well, if you pay, can't pay alimony, then. I don't know what good is he anyways. Right. Is he gonna go file in court for custody? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. No, I don't know. But I think the, the situation that we're all talking about here is that there's a complete, there's a huge spectrum of absolutely.

Events that can lead to this happening. So, so please

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: go see what I think the best advice we can give is see an [00:20:00] attorney before you leave. Yes. And it may be in the state that you're in, but have a consultation with the attorney to the state where you're going. Also, yes, we tell people about can perspectives on that.

A lot of times

Sarah J. Hink: when they call in, we get the understanding of where they're located, where they're going. You know, you need to talk to an attorney in that state too. Just, you know, I can only advise you on North Carolina laws, but let's, with an attorney. But you may have coordinate that,

Elizabeth A. Stephenson: you know, get permission perhaps, and then get here and then we file something here.

Something, something like that. You may, I've

Sarah J. Hink: had phone calls with attorneys from other states where they're reaching out to me for information 'cause their client wants to move to North Carolina. Right. Um, so I've been on that side of it too, just giving advice to another attorney in a different state.

Agree. Yeah. So if you wanna move, you wanna, you know, move to Key West and live your life down there, but you have a cus shared custody. Talk to an attorney before you go. Some pina coladas down there. I agree. Ounce of

Cameron Heinsohn: prevention. It's worth a pound of pain,

Sarah J. Hink: a lifetime of pain, ounce of of prevention. I was like, what?

The rum and the ada. Yes, [00:21:00] yes. One ounce at a time. One at a time. That some shit. Shit.

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